"were insignificant compared to the thousands of Palestinians, whom, according to much of the world were purposely killed, maimed, and displaced by the ID"
Something I have pointed out for years, in talking to people.
"Can We Agree On One Thing? That The IDF is a VERY GOOD, POWERFUL Military? I mean there is a very good reason why the Arab armies have not attacked since 1973, and its not because they suddenly Loved The Jews. They got tired of Losing...badly" (Post Oct 7) "IF The Israelis really were engaged in genocide, there would not be any Palestinians left alive in the Gaza Strip. And The IDF would do it all from The Air and 155 Howitzers ."
Except that in the world's eyes, Israel is not even allowed to defend itself. Just imagine if Hamas had spent all of those billions in foreign assistance on improving the lives of those who it rules, as opposed to constructing a tunnel system bigger than the London Underground.
This concept of "disproportionate" is wrongly framed. What should be compared is the number of Hamas terrorists killed compared to the apparently innocent Palestinian residents in the Gaza strip whose lives have been ended. The IDF has maintained a specific policy of trying to keep civilian casualties on the opposing sides as being as low as possible, although it is inevitable that some non-military civilians will suffer.
According to IDF estimates at the end of May 2024, about 14,000 Hamas terrorists have been killed, yet Hamas do not call those killed in Gaza anything else but Palestinians, and their total number is claimed to be about 34,000. Our past experience and knowledge of how these terrorists give false numbers (for example in the explosion in the hospital parking lot, due to what actually was not a bomb but a Hamas rocket miss-fire being 450 claimed and later became less than 50), give clear proof that their numbers are anything but the truth!
So it seems to me to a rough approximation that the better proportionate numbers even after Hamas have used some Palestinian civilians as "human shields" on certain occasions, is roughly equal enemy and civilian losses. Incidentally, compared to how the US army kills its enemy compared to civilians in Vietnam and even in Afghanistan is a far greater proportion of civilians to the enemy, (perhaps even 5 to 1).
War is hell and there is no way civilians can escape not being seriously wounded and killed, but as we should know, the news is very unreliable on these matters. Yet to believe the words from a terrorist organization which has vowed to kill all of the "Zionists", as if in a genocidal role, is an affront to our intelligence and political standing. Israel has no war against the Palestinians and if their leaders would only stop playing political chess and psychological rummy, we could at least get this muddle East in a somewhat better order.
The financial help being given to the Palestinians in Gaza by the US and Europe is going to Hamas and the governing body there. As Frau rightly comments, it should be used for developing the town and its opportunities for its peaceful civilians. But Gaza has been taken over from 2005 from the Palestinian Fatah party, which was more closely aligned with the non military Palestinians. In that year the elections to choose the government favoured Hamas, either by fraud or fault of the somewhat ignorant Gazans of that era. Iran was behind it all of course, and is where most of the money comes, so the development of Gaza took place mainly underground and in the production of weapons and not in civilian municipal matters for peaceful growth.
As we are seeing in the cities around the world and in particular on university campuses, if you ignore criminal behaviour, you only succeed in getting more.
If today’s pro-Hamas supporters knew that they would get sprayed by irritants or water, beaten back by batons, had their hearing damaged by sonic cannons, arrested and jailed, do you think for one minute that there would be marches and encampments?
Had Israel carpet bombed Gaza on October 8th, had Israel attacked and destroyed Iran’s uranium enrichment sites at Natanz and Fordho, there would be quiet in the Middle East.
There is only so much space in the public sphere and you either fill it with good or watch it be filled by evil.
This statement of fact is astonishing for two reasons: "Over the next eight months, Hamas would fire more than 12,000 rockets at Israel". First, that Hamas was in possession of such weapons while the UN, US and rest of the west stood idly by. Second, that the Western media have said nothing about it; which is 1,500 per month or 50 every day. Biden and the rest of the Jew haters can go to hell.
This is an excellent analysis of the hubris of high technology armed forces in conflict with low technology non-state insurgents. As a state, Israel is held to higher standards than Hamas terrorists. Israel is fighting a war on “Hamas jihadist rules” while being judged on archaic standards designed for conventional warfare. “Disproportionality” is not a hindrance to jihadist Islamists who welcome their disproportionate “sacrifice” as a feature not a flaw of their battle strategy.
Israel lives in a tough neighborhood and it and the rest of the West have grown complacent with technological defenses and bomb rooms. How does a 21st century public grasp the concept of 12th century Islamist jihad? I am looking forward to your Part 2 observations.
The concept of "disproportionate" retaliation in international law is tied to the importance of a legitimate military objective. Targeting of "non-combatants" is also prohibited. But the entire corpus of law was intended to apply in wars between nation-states. The quasi-state actors Hamas terrorists are obviously combatants. Their charter intention is to kill Jews for no other reason than that they are Jewish (this has nothing to do with any "occupation"--even if one accepted the concept of Gaza as ever "occupied" by Israel, Israel withdrew and removed its citizens in '05). The Genocide Convention, the Nuremberg Principles and laws of war also define as a "crime against humanity" acquiescence in genocide, both active and passive. So how, in this case, is Israel supposed to define exactly who are the "innocent" civilians of Gaza?
Israel must develop its own weaponry without any reliance on the US, who has not proved to be the best ally. I would love to know the "Einstein" from CNN who asked the question of whether Israel should provide Gaza with an Iron Dome. Maybe the question should be to Sinwar. Why doesn't Hamas provide Gaza with an Iron Dome, but we already know the answer. A question that wasn't answered. Did Israel provide information to the US on its Dome secret technology. It was alluded to that maybe it did, but it wasn't precise. Hopefully, Israel was smarter than that. Looking forward to part 2.
“Fearing the large numbers of Palestinian civilian casualties certain to be inflicted if Israel were forced to invade Gaza as well as regional conflicts into which the United States might be drawn, the Obama administration preferred to bolster Israel’s defensive, rather than offensive, capabilities.“
I knew this to be true from the behavior of the Biden Administration after October 7, but never saw this in writing. So thank you. And I also knew this had to come from Obama as Biden is incapacitated at this point. And knowing that the US relied on Israeli technology makes this all the more frustrating. Israel gives freely and begs for assistance.
My prayers to Hashem are that Israel is able to navigate this current crisis and learn from the dangerous trap that exists by relying on US weapons. Send money yes, but don’t slow walk weapons shipments to Israel in the middle of a war. Oh yeh, we also need to eliminate the Iranian supporters in the State Department. Send them packing.
Great article, (former) Ambassador Oren. I have always appreciated your input. I cannot imagine Part II being anything less than explaining how the IC has essentially worked in concert (and overdrive) to legitimize a terrorist organization (Hamas).
This is a difficult issue, because the Palestinians wanted liberation when they were tossed out at the fall of the Ottoman Empire, as their history in Arab lands is one of disenfranchisement, and marginalization. They thought claiming Israel as their homeland was the key out of their misery. Until Israel became a sovereign nation in 1948. All or nothing has always been the game plan. Side-by-side is merely empty rhetoric to buy time until which time Jews are "eliminated" and thus victims of another genocide. Self-defense (Israel's response) is not genocide. War is an ugly enterprise.
When hostile entities vow to “wipe you off the map” this is a declaration of genocidal ambitions.
How is it that the obvious is so shamelessly obscured? Is it solely the appeal to the emotions that Hamas plays and preys on?
The "victim mentality" is very popular in today's common parlance. The more that Hamas can legitimize itself by claiming the victimization of Palestinians at the hands of Jews, the more it convinces the IC (including America) to do its bidding.
One might argue that the Irgun birthed the IDF, or that the American Revolutionaries, who fought for taxation with representation birthed the U.S. Armed forces, and thus, how is Hamas any different? Land ownership, side-by-side. It seems the offending party is the one who has to change.
Logic often falls on deaf ears. What an undeniable and needless dilemma.
Yes, how different the fate of Palestinian Arabs would be if they chose to partner with their fellow Semite Jews rather than vow to ‘eradicate’ them? They were a colony of the Ottomans for centuries and have yet to form a functioning self government. Israel and surrounding Arab states find them frustrating and dangerous - banned by Jordan, Syria, Egypt, and Lebanon. “Allah helps those who help themselves.”
Blaming others for our own shortcomings seems to be a hallmark of humanity, i.e., for humans who do not accept that accountability, ownership and responsibility are the only means toward true emancipation of the self, scaled to any level of human endeavor.
"Members of the Semitic language family are employed as official administrative languages in a number of states throughout the Middle East and the adjacent areas. Arabic is the official language of Algeria (with Tamazight), Bahrain, Chad (with French), Djibouti (with French), Egypt, Iraq (with Kurdish), Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Mauritania (where Arabic, Fula [Fulani], Soninke, and Wolof have the status of national languages), Morocco, Oman, the Palestinian Authority, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Somalia (with Somali), Sudan (with English), Syria, Tunisia, the United Arab Emirates, and Yemen. Other Semitic languages designated as official are Hebrew in Israel (where Arabic also enjoys special status) and Maltese in Malta (with English). In Ethiopia, which recognizes all locally spoken languages equally, Amharic is the “working language” of the government"
"One might argue that the Irgun birthed the IDF, or that the American Revolutionaries, who fought for taxation with representation birthed the U.S. Armed forces, and thus, how is Hamas any different?"
Only 1000% Different. Hamas is the Palestinian branch of The Muslim Brotherhood.
Lesson - NEVER RELY ON TECHNOLOGY ALONE! HUMAN INGENUITY (& LOW TECH) CAN BITE YOU IN THE ASS!!! What's the adage? Assume nothing, it makes an ass of u & me.
On the converse one may well ask why they continue to fire rockets on Israel if Iron Dome is just going to intercept them. Why has the USA never asked that?
"were insignificant compared to the thousands of Palestinians, whom, according to much of the world were purposely killed, maimed, and displaced by the ID"
Something I have pointed out for years, in talking to people.
"Can We Agree On One Thing? That The IDF is a VERY GOOD, POWERFUL Military? I mean there is a very good reason why the Arab armies have not attacked since 1973, and its not because they suddenly Loved The Jews. They got tired of Losing...badly" (Post Oct 7) "IF The Israelis really were engaged in genocide, there would not be any Palestinians left alive in the Gaza Strip. And The IDF would do it all from The Air and 155 Howitzers ."
Precisely.
Arab states don’t attack Israel for many reasons, most of all they are a nuclear power you fool
They had them in 73. I have read on day 3(?) of the 73 war the IDF was getting ready to do Uploads, when the tide stared to turn.
Except that in the world's eyes, Israel is not even allowed to defend itself. Just imagine if Hamas had spent all of those billions in foreign assistance on improving the lives of those who it rules, as opposed to constructing a tunnel system bigger than the London Underground.
Israel invests in protecting its citizens. Hamas invests in killing residents of Gaza.
This concept of "disproportionate" is wrongly framed. What should be compared is the number of Hamas terrorists killed compared to the apparently innocent Palestinian residents in the Gaza strip whose lives have been ended. The IDF has maintained a specific policy of trying to keep civilian casualties on the opposing sides as being as low as possible, although it is inevitable that some non-military civilians will suffer.
According to IDF estimates at the end of May 2024, about 14,000 Hamas terrorists have been killed, yet Hamas do not call those killed in Gaza anything else but Palestinians, and their total number is claimed to be about 34,000. Our past experience and knowledge of how these terrorists give false numbers (for example in the explosion in the hospital parking lot, due to what actually was not a bomb but a Hamas rocket miss-fire being 450 claimed and later became less than 50), give clear proof that their numbers are anything but the truth!
So it seems to me to a rough approximation that the better proportionate numbers even after Hamas have used some Palestinian civilians as "human shields" on certain occasions, is roughly equal enemy and civilian losses. Incidentally, compared to how the US army kills its enemy compared to civilians in Vietnam and even in Afghanistan is a far greater proportion of civilians to the enemy, (perhaps even 5 to 1).
War is hell and there is no way civilians can escape not being seriously wounded and killed, but as we should know, the news is very unreliable on these matters. Yet to believe the words from a terrorist organization which has vowed to kill all of the "Zionists", as if in a genocidal role, is an affront to our intelligence and political standing. Israel has no war against the Palestinians and if their leaders would only stop playing political chess and psychological rummy, we could at least get this muddle East in a somewhat better order.
They’d be a lot better off if Hamas developed Gaza instead of building elaborate tunnels and weapons.
The financial help being given to the Palestinians in Gaza by the US and Europe is going to Hamas and the governing body there. As Frau rightly comments, it should be used for developing the town and its opportunities for its peaceful civilians. But Gaza has been taken over from 2005 from the Palestinian Fatah party, which was more closely aligned with the non military Palestinians. In that year the elections to choose the government favoured Hamas, either by fraud or fault of the somewhat ignorant Gazans of that era. Iran was behind it all of course, and is where most of the money comes, so the development of Gaza took place mainly underground and in the production of weapons and not in civilian municipal matters for peaceful growth.
As we are seeing in the cities around the world and in particular on university campuses, if you ignore criminal behaviour, you only succeed in getting more.
If today’s pro-Hamas supporters knew that they would get sprayed by irritants or water, beaten back by batons, had their hearing damaged by sonic cannons, arrested and jailed, do you think for one minute that there would be marches and encampments?
Had Israel carpet bombed Gaza on October 8th, had Israel attacked and destroyed Iran’s uranium enrichment sites at Natanz and Fordho, there would be quiet in the Middle East.
There is only so much space in the public sphere and you either fill it with good or watch it be filled by evil.
This statement of fact is astonishing for two reasons: "Over the next eight months, Hamas would fire more than 12,000 rockets at Israel". First, that Hamas was in possession of such weapons while the UN, US and rest of the west stood idly by. Second, that the Western media have said nothing about it; which is 1,500 per month or 50 every day. Biden and the rest of the Jew haters can go to hell.
This is an excellent analysis of the hubris of high technology armed forces in conflict with low technology non-state insurgents. As a state, Israel is held to higher standards than Hamas terrorists. Israel is fighting a war on “Hamas jihadist rules” while being judged on archaic standards designed for conventional warfare. “Disproportionality” is not a hindrance to jihadist Islamists who welcome their disproportionate “sacrifice” as a feature not a flaw of their battle strategy.
Israel lives in a tough neighborhood and it and the rest of the West have grown complacent with technological defenses and bomb rooms. How does a 21st century public grasp the concept of 12th century Islamist jihad? I am looking forward to your Part 2 observations.
I saw an American university protester carrying a banner labelled “Jihad” in big bright letters. They’re not even pretending anymore.
The concept of "disproportionate" retaliation in international law is tied to the importance of a legitimate military objective. Targeting of "non-combatants" is also prohibited. But the entire corpus of law was intended to apply in wars between nation-states. The quasi-state actors Hamas terrorists are obviously combatants. Their charter intention is to kill Jews for no other reason than that they are Jewish (this has nothing to do with any "occupation"--even if one accepted the concept of Gaza as ever "occupied" by Israel, Israel withdrew and removed its citizens in '05). The Genocide Convention, the Nuremberg Principles and laws of war also define as a "crime against humanity" acquiescence in genocide, both active and passive. So how, in this case, is Israel supposed to define exactly who are the "innocent" civilians of Gaza?
https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:7206841913499357184/
Israel must develop its own weaponry without any reliance on the US, who has not proved to be the best ally. I would love to know the "Einstein" from CNN who asked the question of whether Israel should provide Gaza with an Iron Dome. Maybe the question should be to Sinwar. Why doesn't Hamas provide Gaza with an Iron Dome, but we already know the answer. A question that wasn't answered. Did Israel provide information to the US on its Dome secret technology. It was alluded to that maybe it did, but it wasn't precise. Hopefully, Israel was smarter than that. Looking forward to part 2.
“Fearing the large numbers of Palestinian civilian casualties certain to be inflicted if Israel were forced to invade Gaza as well as regional conflicts into which the United States might be drawn, the Obama administration preferred to bolster Israel’s defensive, rather than offensive, capabilities.“
I knew this to be true from the behavior of the Biden Administration after October 7, but never saw this in writing. So thank you. And I also knew this had to come from Obama as Biden is incapacitated at this point. And knowing that the US relied on Israeli technology makes this all the more frustrating. Israel gives freely and begs for assistance.
My prayers to Hashem are that Israel is able to navigate this current crisis and learn from the dangerous trap that exists by relying on US weapons. Send money yes, but don’t slow walk weapons shipments to Israel in the middle of a war. Oh yeh, we also need to eliminate the Iranian supporters in the State Department. Send them packing.
Great article, (former) Ambassador Oren. I have always appreciated your input. I cannot imagine Part II being anything less than explaining how the IC has essentially worked in concert (and overdrive) to legitimize a terrorist organization (Hamas).
This is a difficult issue, because the Palestinians wanted liberation when they were tossed out at the fall of the Ottoman Empire, as their history in Arab lands is one of disenfranchisement, and marginalization. They thought claiming Israel as their homeland was the key out of their misery. Until Israel became a sovereign nation in 1948. All or nothing has always been the game plan. Side-by-side is merely empty rhetoric to buy time until which time Jews are "eliminated" and thus victims of another genocide. Self-defense (Israel's response) is not genocide. War is an ugly enterprise.
When hostile entities vow to “wipe you off the map” this is a declaration of genocidal ambitions.
How is it that the obvious is so shamelessly obscured? Is it solely the appeal to the emotions that Hamas plays and preys on?
The "victim mentality" is very popular in today's common parlance. The more that Hamas can legitimize itself by claiming the victimization of Palestinians at the hands of Jews, the more it convinces the IC (including America) to do its bidding.
One might argue that the Irgun birthed the IDF, or that the American Revolutionaries, who fought for taxation with representation birthed the U.S. Armed forces, and thus, how is Hamas any different? Land ownership, side-by-side. It seems the offending party is the one who has to change.
Logic often falls on deaf ears. What an undeniable and needless dilemma.
Yes, how different the fate of Palestinian Arabs would be if they chose to partner with their fellow Semite Jews rather than vow to ‘eradicate’ them? They were a colony of the Ottomans for centuries and have yet to form a functioning self government. Israel and surrounding Arab states find them frustrating and dangerous - banned by Jordan, Syria, Egypt, and Lebanon. “Allah helps those who help themselves.”
Precisely.
Blaming others for our own shortcomings seems to be a hallmark of humanity, i.e., for humans who do not accept that accountability, ownership and responsibility are the only means toward true emancipation of the self, scaled to any level of human endeavor.
They're not Semites. That's a fictitious fantasy, again usurping our heritage in the quest for victimhood.
Semite is a cultural and linguistic grouping...
"Members of the Semitic language family are employed as official administrative languages in a number of states throughout the Middle East and the adjacent areas. Arabic is the official language of Algeria (with Tamazight), Bahrain, Chad (with French), Djibouti (with French), Egypt, Iraq (with Kurdish), Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Mauritania (where Arabic, Fula [Fulani], Soninke, and Wolof have the status of national languages), Morocco, Oman, the Palestinian Authority, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Somalia (with Somali), Sudan (with English), Syria, Tunisia, the United Arab Emirates, and Yemen. Other Semitic languages designated as official are Hebrew in Israel (where Arabic also enjoys special status) and Maltese in Malta (with English). In Ethiopia, which recognizes all locally spoken languages equally, Amharic is the “working language” of the government"
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Semitic-languages
They're not semites
"One might argue that the Irgun birthed the IDF, or that the American Revolutionaries, who fought for taxation with representation birthed the U.S. Armed forces, and thus, how is Hamas any different?"
Only 1000% Different. Hamas is the Palestinian branch of The Muslim Brotherhood.
Lesson - NEVER RELY ON TECHNOLOGY ALONE! HUMAN INGENUITY (& LOW TECH) CAN BITE YOU IN THE ASS!!! What's the adage? Assume nothing, it makes an ass of u & me.
On the converse one may well ask why they continue to fire rockets on Israel if Iron Dome is just going to intercept them. Why has the USA never asked that?
With regard to the Iron Dome, Israel also had low tech watchwomen observing the Gaza border, but their warnings were ignored.